The following is the full transcript of an interview with Dr. Leana Wen on “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan” that aired on Dec. 29, 2024.
MAJOR GARRETT: Last week, the US reported its first severe case of bird flu found in a patient in Louisiana. For more, we’re joined by Dr. Leana Wynn. She is the former Baltimore health commissioner. Dr Leana Wynn, it’s great to have you with us. So bird flu, is this report out of Louisiana worrisome? And if so, why?
DR. LEANA WEN: Well, it’s one more sign that the drum beat of bird flu coming closer to humans is becoming a major threat. So, we’ve already seen this year that there have been a number of mammalian species close to humans that now have bird flu outbreaks. We have outbreaks in poultry in all 50 states. 16 states have outbreaks in cattle. In California, in the last 30 days, there have been more than 300 herds that tested positive, and now we have 66 cases of bird flu in humans, and this is almost certainly a significant undercount, because we have not been doing nearly enough testing. So, we really don’t know the extent of bird flu that’s out there in humans. But this particular case, it’s someone who is severely ill. But not only that, researchers have isolated the virus in this individual who is sick in Louisiana, and they found that this particular strain of the virus appears to have acquired mutations that make it more likely to bind to airway receptors. Bird flu has been around for a long time–
MAJOR GARRETT: — About 30 years–
DR. LEANA WEN: Yeah, exactly. But it hasn’t been a major issue in humans, because while it spreads among birds, it hasn’t really spread among mammals. But now there is this mutation, and there’s another concern now, Major, too which is that we’re in flu season, and it’s possible that a single person could have bird flu and seasonal flu at the same time.
MAJOR GARRETT: Something called reassortment, that’s right, where things change because of one illness becoming another illness through reassortment of a mutated virus.
DR. LEANA WEN: That’s right. And so, the viruses could exchange genes. You could develop a new hybrid virus, and if you now have a virus that’s more contagious and causes more severe disease, that’s when it becomes a major threat to humankind.
MAJOR GARRETT: What should be happening in the Biden administration right now that isn’t going on?
DR. LEANA WEN: Yeah, there are two main things that they should be doing in the days that they have left. The first is to get testing out there. I feel like we should have learned our lesson from COVID that just because we aren’t testing, it doesn’t mean that the virus isn’t there. It just means that we aren’t looking for it. We should be having rapid tests, home tests, available to all farm workers, to their families, for the clinicians taking care of them, so that we aren’t waiting for public labs and CDC labs to tell us what’s bird flu or not. And the second very important thing is this is not like the beginning of COVID, where we were dealing with a new virus, we didn’t have a vaccine. There actually is a vaccine developed already against H5N1. The Biden administration has contracted with manufacturers to make almost 5 million doses of the vaccine. However, they have not asked the FDA to authorize the vaccine. There’s research done on it. They could get this authorized now, and also get the vaccine out so- and to farm workers and to vulnerable people. I think that’s the right approach, because we don’t know what the Trump administration is going to be doing around bird flu. If they have people coming in with anti-vaccine stances, could they hold up vaccine authorization? If they don’t want to know how much bird flu is out there, could they withhold testing? I mean, that’s a possibility, and I think the Biden administration in the remaining days should get testing and vaccines widely available so that at least it empowers state and local health officials and clinicians to do the right thing for their patients.
MAJOR GARRETT: Dr. Wen, is bird flu in humans super dangerous?
DR. LEANA WEN: Well, the World Health Organization estimates that in prior outbreaks of the bird flu that the mortality rate is 52%. 52%. However, in the- in this most recent outbreak, it seems that most cases have been mild and maybe some people even have asymptomatic infection. But the question is, we don’t know what happens when bird flu affects more vulnerable individuals. People infected so far in the US have been mainly farm workers who are working, presumably generally healthy, as opposed to what happens when you get to children, to pregnant women, to older individuals with chronic illnesses. We don’t know how deadly, how dangerous bird flu is going to be for those individuals. And again, that’s one more reason why we don’t want it to spread and acquire more mutations.
MAJOR GARRETT: 30 seconds. Norovirus is what you call it. Stomach bug is what I would call it. Numbers are surging. It’s the holidays. What should people do to protect themselves?
DR. LEANA WEN: Wash your hands really well, especially if you’re going to buffets. Wash your hands if you’re touching commonly touched surfaces before you touch your mouth, before you touch your nose. Norovirus is the most common foodborne illness here in the US. It’s very hard to avoid once it’s in your family. And also, don’t prepare food if you’re having vomiting and diarrhea stomach cramps, because you don’t want to spread it to other people.
MAJOR GARRETT: Dr Lena Wen, thank you so much for your expertise. We really appreciate it. We will have more questions for Dr Wen. when we come back, but first we’re going to take a quick break.
[COMMERCIAL BREAK]
MAJOR GARRETT: Welcome back to Face the Nation. We return to our conversation with Dr Leana Wen. Doctor you talked about vaccines and testing and the context of bird flu and preparations, therefore, vaccines and testing were part of the COVID conversation. And the Trump administration when it was in charge.What level of concern do you have about some of the people appointed by President-elect Trump to incoming public health positions regarding issues of vaccine testing, public health efficacy.
DR. LEANA WEN: I think that there are some people coming into this administration who are very competent. For example, Dr. Marty Makary, a Johns Hopkins surgeon. We have worked together for the last 10 plus years on issues like hospital- medical ERM. He’s an independent thinker who really listens to science and is willing to change his mind when there is new evidence that emerges. But I have a lot of concern, and I’ve spoken to my colleagues in medicine and public health, and I think all of us share this concern, in particular about Robert F. Kennedy, the nominee to be the head of Health and Human Services. Kennedy has espoused many views in the past that are anti vaccine. In fact, he’s been one of the leading anti vaccine advocates in the country, if not in the world, over the last couple of decades. He’s also someone who has made his career from being an activist and not a scientist. And what I mean is that if you’re a scientist, even if you have deeply held convictions, you should be willing to change your mind. If there are new facts that are presented. It’s a fact that childhood vaccines are safe and they are life saving. A CDC analysis just now found that the childhood vaccinations have saved over 1.1 million children’s lives over the last 20 years. According to a Lancet study, childhood vaccines have saved 154 million lives globally over the last 50 years. I mean, these are facts, and it’s very concerning to have someone who doesn’t believe in the- in how science works, in basic scientific principles, to be in charge of our nation’s preeminent scientific and medical agencies.
MAJOR GARRETT: With that perspective, do you believe it’s more imperative than you described earlier, for the Biden administration to move forward on bird flu vaccinations and testing?
DR. LEANA WEN: Well, that’s exactly it. I don’t want to wait for the Trump administration to potentially hold up the vaccines saying that they want more evidence. Look, evidence is always good and facts are always good. New research is always good. But you also have to weigh that against a potential catastrophe, as we could be having for bird flu, the way that we had for COVID. There’s no reason why we should hold off on getting more testing. We need to know how much bird flu there is out there. We need to know if there are new mutations that are being developed other countries also need to know so that they can prepare as well. And I think it’s a major problem that in the US, we have been holding back on testing and also holding back on getting the vaccines deployed that are already developed.
MAJOR GARRETT: Dr. Leana Wynn, thank you so much for your expertise, thanking you twice and a Happy New Year to you.
DR. LEANA WEN: Thank you to you too, Major.
